The author's brother and sister didn't give in to peer pressure and refused to change who they were to fit in but the author did change. Who did the right thing, the author or her sibblings?
By the way, there is a concept in this chapter that she keeps mentioning. For example she says, "The central concern is about having the freedom to go back and forth from the home language to the public language without feeling a sense of inferiority. I wanted to make sure you know that this concept is called "codeswitching". We'll use that word a lot in the coming weeks.
One thing I like about this chapter is that she gives me some insight into what it would be like to be forced to have to codeswitch in order to be successful. I have had to change so little about myself to be successful, so I often wonder what it feels like to be a kid who has to change a lot.
My favorite line from this chapter was how she described having to learn the European Language as it "Setting up a force field against which I had to do battle for my soul" because it shows just how much the whole idea of "acting white" truly affected the author's battle with language. She mentions throughout this chapter how her mother, and grandmother, constantly told her to act white or how society placed it upon her to "Speak right" and it brought up a question that was discussed in one of my lingustics class one time. Who are we, as English speaking people, to say that the way African Americans speak Ebonics, is wrong?
And her chapter here constantly reminded me of that question. She continuously talks about how she felt like her brain was being oiled, or how she was being forced to be something she wasn't. She constantly had that feeling of inferiority whenver she spoke.
So my question is, what rights do we think we have to telling them how they can speak? If we can understand them, but their language is different, then why do we pressure them so much to change?
I don't know exacly what you mean by "we." I assume you mean Caucasians. I also think "we" as teachers put a lot of pressure on African Americans and other minorities to speak standard English. The reason I would put pressure on my students to at least learn standard (common tongue) English is because it allows them to better compete in the national and (for now) global economy. I know that sounds apathetic, but it's the truth right?
The only comment I have is I'm amazed at the strength (emotional, psychological) that the author had to have to get through school with the kind of pressures that are constantly weighing on her. Like Dr. Alby commented her brother and sister didn't give into peer pressure and I don't know if that shows more stregth? I wish I could relate but I have little sense of the same kinds of pressures.
I think of code-switching as a survival mechanism; we all do this to some extent just not as much as those whose cultural language is so marginalized by our society. It is not only psychologically damaging (as you can see from the traumatic dual identity the author has to create and maintain in order to "fit in" with the "master culture" both linguistically and physio-culturally (dressing "white" etc...))but also racist to force students to abandon an integral part of their identity to assimilate whether it be for on hour in English class or one year at a job.
I'm not sure who was stronger--her or her siblings. I think the social ostracism she endured would encourage most children to conform to the language of their peers. I think the social isolation, cultural denial, and identity-trauma she had as a child definitely manifests when she talks about her mother and grandmother's attempts to reshape her language. I feel sorry for those women who must have had such high hopes for their childrens' success in a world determined to keep them down and so much fear--you don't try to change your children so ferociously and completely without a heavy dose of fear and bitter experience with racism (the "White Devils" comment comes to mind). I wonder how things would have been for the whole family if a linguistic approach to the author's language was predominant. How much stress could have been relieved if they were celebrated rather than curbed, pressured, and masked.
Yes Dani, I meant "we" as Caucasians, sorry I should have specified.
But I agree, I feel that I have to constantly correct my students to speak the proper English, mainly for national reasons and for the competition they will have to face later on.
But my main thing was how this related to that conversation we all had in my lingustics class about why we (Caucasians) feel that we HAVE to force African Americans to speak like us and why their Ebonics isn't correct.
So I guess my question is, how do you feel about it? (which you answered). Would you want to make African American students try to change their language or is keeping their own "voice" more important? Or are there situations where you might do one over the other?
I think there is a fairly definitive answer to the question "what should teachers do" in terms of the teaching standard English vs. encouraging students' home language debate, but I think I'll let that answer unfold as we read these various articles. It is such a great question.
I do not think there is a "right" answer to the change or don't change question. I think that if you are able to modify yourself in order to achieve success without losing your identity then you are doing the right thing. At the same time if you are able to achieve your goals without changing at all, that can be the right thing too. The most important idea is that you do not lose yourself along the journey. I feel that learning to jump through hoops to be successful, in this case "code-switch" is an important life lesson. As college students we have all experienced some version of this. I hate that certain cultures are oppressed by the reigning standard English. But learning SE is necessary, it's the same reason that we learn writing conventions. We need to communicate clearly and effectively. So how as teachers do we teach standard English without belittling the languages of our students?
If it is racist to force students to speak Standard English for an hour in their English class don't you think it is even more racist (as English teachers) to be setting our multicultural students up for failure in the job market? What employer looks at a resume peppered with phrases like "ovuh dyah" and immediately hires that potential employee? I think refusing to expose our students to standard English is one of the worst things that we could do to them.
I don't know what I think just yet. I'll get there. One line that I did like, even though I am not sure exactly how I feel about it, is the devil's advocate position that it may be somewhat empowering if someone who comes from a long history of slavery to master the language of those who enslave. Again, that is probably a weak argument, but it is just a thought.
This whole issue is really tough for me. I don't want to be someone who asks a child to step away from their culture or behave in a manner that is what society deems "standard." But then, how should I feel when a student of mine goes in for a job interview and doesn't get it because the person interviewing them doesn't like the way they speak or write? Haven't I let that student down? No matter what we teach them, there is always going to be someone they encounter who believes the exact opposite as I do. I never thought of this issue until this program, and to be honest, the more I think about it, the more conflicted I become. Is it fair for us as teachers to ask our students to change their speech? No. Do we have an obligation to help put our students in positions to succeed? Yes. So my question is this, is there a middle ground or do we ultimately need to leave it up to the speaker?
The grammarian in me and the linguist in me were having quite a battle with each other as I read this chapter. I can see so much of myself in the narrator as she mentions how she was able to switch from one way of speaking to another because, over the years, I have trained myself to do the same thing.
Not that I have ever had a think Southern accent, but I learned many years ago that people receive me more positively when I cover it up even more (though I do recognize that there are certain words/phrases I don't/can't cover up).
Like the author, I have experienced my peers (as I was growing up) ridiculing me for speaking properly and with good grammar (my English teacher called it the "King's English" rather than the author calling it the "Queen's English").
I want to respond to one of Brent's questions, "is there a middle ground or do we ultimately need to leave it up to the speaker?" I'd like to throw out there the possibility of a middle ground.
Obviously, we should inform our students to consider the audience who will be reading the things they write / hearing the things they say. If we do not point out audience, we are doing our students a serious injustice. But if we try to stop students from speaking in a certain way altogether, we are taking away part of those students' identities. Codeswitching is an invaluable tool and should be handled with the utmost care.
Maybe, as a middle ground, we could assign journals to students as a way of expressing themselves in their language. Then, we could require a more standardized speech in formal essays. That way the students would be given opportunity to write for an audience (likely us, the teachers) as well as providing students an outlet for expressing themselves in any way they choose.
I thought the most interesting aspect of this chapter is the fact that the author is from Trinidad. She talks a lot about being colonized and forced to speak their oppressors tongue. This made me think of the Native Americans more than the African Americas. Native American language is so completely wiped out, it never crosses our mind. Also, in the sentence where she realizes that "the colonizer only values the native tongue in the realm of entertainment" , I thought of how many times in our media we have made fun of the Native American language. If you don't believe me, go back and watch Disney's Peter Pan- there's a whole comedic song- " Why Is The Red Man Red". The African American is in a different situation than those in Trinidad. They were not colonized, but became a part of American culture after it was established in the area (albeit not by choice).
I think she was stronger than her siblings. She had to go through more personal, internal and social struggle to try and succeed. She also obviously did not allow herself to loose her "black" forms of speech.
I think we need to be open and accepting of those students who speak in different ways, be it Ebonics or Spanish we come across in our classrooms. Our subject is the one of communication and if we are unwilling to try and communicate and respect them, why should they try to do so with us? However, I do think that teaching Standard American English is important. Not only is it neglect to not teach Standard American English because of testing, but it's also neglect because we would not be preparing them for life after school. I have always believed that school has to be preparation for life, if not, it's just a waste of time. By not requiring our students to learn the mainstream socially acceptable English we are doing them a disservice. I agree, that a journal that can be written in their dialect is a good idea. At the same time, require something more formal like a letter to the senator assignment written in Standard American English.
Why not teach them about code switching and when it it important?
I agree with Erin. “Code switching” is an unfortunate method that people must use in order to achieve success. Unfortunately, it is what is expected of us, and if we were to not teach this to students we would be setting them up for failure. “Code Switching” effects everyone, it doesn’t necessarily have to do with skin color; it can also have a lot do to with where you live. I started thinking about Southern accents when I was reading this; a lot of people have said that they try to conceal their Southern accents, because others may think that they are “uneducated” or “unintelligent.”
As many of you have already acknowledged, Standard English is what's expected in the professional world, and we must let that be known to our students. It's not about "acting/speaking white," it's about giving our students the tools for succeeding in a world that it is imperative to "communicate clearly and effectively," as Erin phrased it.
I really liked the theme that was happening in this chapter. I feel like it is something that goes on in every child throughout grade school. Children "act" to be able to fit in, to be who they think the teachers want them to be, etc. Even though this type of behavior goes far beyond language, it is most devastating to take in that children still have so much trouble being themselves. Being accepted as who they are culture, language and all. As teachers, I think it will be important to pick texts at times to show people who have triumphed through embracing their ancestry, cultural background, and native tongue.
I agree with Stephen. I just think it will be somewhat difficult to do so whenever we also teach them that their backgrounds are important and that they should embrace that.
I agree with what Rose said why not just teach them about code switching. Explain that it is something everyone does and try to match up when we speak differently and what is appropriate.
I also agree with Abby we should pick texts that will highlight multiple different cultures and characters. We should continuously try to broaden the world for our students and nit try to box them in.
The speaker was in a hard position as a child. It would have been hard being pulled in both directions -- not knowing which side to stand most firmly on..or to stand equally on both sides perhaps. I like the comment she makes near the end of the chapter stating that, "The central concern is about having the freedom to go back and forth from the home language to the public language without feeling a sense of inferiority" (p.13).
I agree with the comment that Stephen made...that it's about training students -- providing them with tools to succeed in a world where certain things are expected.
I think the chapter " Ovuh Dyuh" is ironic, because it shows how one is forced to speak another type of language is not their own and must go "ovuh dyuh" to be accepted. A language that is spoken by the majority, which is the British accent. Even though the narrator was able to switch from English to Trinidadian, it still was not good enough or acceptable to everyone else. I think the most important task should be is to teach our children what is mostly acceptable in society, because I know I would feel guilty if I taught a language that would hinder then from succeeding in life.
At the same time teaching our youth the most acceptable and language in society, I also think that it is important to teach other types of languages, so that they are exposed to multi cultural languages and heritages.
The author's brother and sister didn't give in to peer pressure and refused to change who they were to fit in but the author did change. Who did the right thing, the author or her sibblings?
ReplyDeleteBy the way, there is a concept in this chapter that she keeps mentioning. For example she says, "The central concern is about having the freedom to go back and forth from the home language to the public language without feeling a sense of inferiority. I wanted to make sure you know that this concept is called "codeswitching". We'll use that word a lot in the coming weeks.
One thing I like about this chapter is that she gives me some insight into what it would be like to be forced to have to codeswitch in order to be successful. I have had to change so little about myself to be successful, so I often wonder what it feels like to be a kid who has to change a lot.
My favorite line from this chapter was how she described having to learn the European Language as it "Setting up a force field against which I had to do battle for my soul" because it shows just how much the whole idea of "acting white" truly affected the author's battle with language. She mentions throughout this chapter how her mother, and grandmother, constantly told her to act white or how society placed it upon her to "Speak right" and it brought up a question that was discussed in one of my lingustics class one time. Who are we, as English speaking people, to say that the way African Americans speak Ebonics, is wrong?
ReplyDeleteAnd her chapter here constantly reminded me of that question. She continuously talks about how she felt like her brain was being oiled, or how she was being forced to be something she wasn't. She constantly had that feeling of inferiority whenver she spoke.
So my question is, what rights do we think we have to telling them how they can speak? If we can understand them, but their language is different, then why do we pressure them so much to change?
I don't know exacly what you mean by "we." I assume you mean Caucasians. I also think "we" as teachers put a lot of pressure on African Americans and other minorities to speak standard English. The reason I would put pressure on my students to at least learn standard (common tongue) English is because it allows them to better compete in the national and (for now) global economy. I know that sounds apathetic, but it's the truth right?
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThe only comment I have is I'm amazed at the strength (emotional, psychological) that the author had to have to get through school with the kind of pressures that are constantly weighing on her. Like Dr. Alby commented her brother and sister didn't give into peer pressure and I don't know if that shows more stregth? I wish I could relate but I have little sense of the same kinds of pressures.
ReplyDeleteI think of code-switching as a survival mechanism; we all do this to some extent just not as much as those whose cultural language is so marginalized by our society. It is not only psychologically damaging (as you can see from the traumatic dual identity the author has to create and maintain in order to "fit in" with the "master culture" both linguistically and physio-culturally (dressing "white" etc...))but also racist to force students to abandon an integral part of their identity to assimilate whether it be for on hour in English class or one year at a job.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure who was stronger--her or her siblings. I think the social ostracism she endured would encourage most children to conform to the language of their peers. I think the social isolation, cultural denial, and identity-trauma she had as a child definitely manifests when she talks about her mother and grandmother's attempts to reshape her language. I feel sorry for those women who must have had such high hopes for their childrens' success in a world determined to keep them down and so much fear--you don't try to change your children so ferociously and completely without a heavy dose of fear and bitter experience with racism (the "White Devils" comment comes to mind).
ReplyDeleteI wonder how things would have been for the whole family if a linguistic approach to the author's language was predominant. How much stress could have been relieved if they were celebrated rather than curbed, pressured, and masked.
Yes Dani, I meant "we" as Caucasians, sorry I should have specified.
ReplyDeleteBut I agree, I feel that I have to constantly correct my students to speak the proper English, mainly for national reasons and for the competition they will have to face later on.
But my main thing was how this related to that conversation we all had in my lingustics class about why we (Caucasians) feel that we HAVE to force African Americans to speak like us and why their Ebonics isn't correct.
So I guess my question is, how do you feel about it? (which you answered). Would you want to make African American students try to change their language or is keeping their own "voice" more important? Or are there situations where you might do one over the other?
I think there is a fairly definitive answer to the question "what should teachers do" in terms of the teaching standard English vs. encouraging students' home language debate, but I think I'll let that answer unfold as we read these various articles. It is such a great question.
ReplyDeleteI do not think there is a "right" answer to the change or don't change question. I think that if you are able to modify yourself in order to achieve success without losing your identity then you are doing the right thing. At the same time if you are able to achieve your goals without changing at all, that can be the right thing too. The most important idea is that you do not lose yourself along the journey. I feel that learning to jump through hoops to be successful, in this case "code-switch" is an important life lesson. As college students we have all experienced some version of this. I hate that certain cultures are oppressed by the reigning standard English. But learning SE is necessary, it's the same reason that we learn writing conventions. We need to communicate clearly and effectively. So how as teachers do we teach standard English without belittling the languages of our students?
ReplyDeleteLorien,
ReplyDeleteIf it is racist to force students to speak Standard English for an hour in their English class don't you think it is even more racist (as English teachers) to be setting our multicultural students up for failure in the job market? What employer looks at a resume peppered with phrases like "ovuh dyah" and immediately hires that potential employee? I think refusing to expose our students to standard English is one of the worst things that we could do to them.
I don't know what I think just yet. I'll get there. One line that I did like, even though I am not sure exactly how I feel about it, is the devil's advocate position that it may be somewhat empowering if someone who comes from a long history of slavery to master the language of those who enslave. Again, that is probably a weak argument, but it is just a thought.
ReplyDeleteThis whole issue is really tough for me. I don't want to be someone who asks a child to step away from their culture or behave in a manner that is what society deems "standard." But then, how should I feel when a student of mine goes in for a job interview and doesn't get it because the person interviewing them doesn't like the way they speak or write? Haven't I let that student down? No matter what we teach them, there is always going to be someone they encounter who believes the exact opposite as I do. I never thought of this issue until this program, and to be honest, the more I think about it, the more conflicted I become. Is it fair for us as teachers to ask our students to change their speech? No. Do we have an obligation to help put our students in positions to succeed? Yes. So my question is this, is there a middle ground or do we ultimately need to leave it up to the speaker?
ReplyDeleteThe grammarian in me and the linguist in me were having quite a battle with each other as I read this chapter. I can see so much of myself in the narrator as she mentions how she was able to switch from one way of speaking to another because, over the years, I have trained myself to do the same thing.
ReplyDeleteNot that I have ever had a think Southern accent, but I learned many years ago that people receive me more positively when I cover it up even more (though I do recognize that there are certain words/phrases I don't/can't cover up).
Like the author, I have experienced my peers (as I was growing up) ridiculing me for speaking properly and with good grammar (my English teacher called it the "King's English" rather than the author calling it the "Queen's English").
I want to respond to one of Brent's questions, "is there a middle ground or do we ultimately need to leave it up to the speaker?" I'd like to throw out there the possibility of a middle ground.
ReplyDeleteObviously, we should inform our students to consider the audience who will be reading the things they write / hearing the things they say. If we do not point out audience, we are doing our students a serious injustice. But if we try to stop students from speaking in a certain way altogether, we are taking away part of those students' identities. Codeswitching is an invaluable tool and should be handled with the utmost care.
Maybe, as a middle ground, we could assign journals to students as a way of expressing themselves in their language. Then, we could require a more standardized speech in formal essays. That way the students would be given opportunity to write for an audience (likely us, the teachers) as well as providing students an outlet for expressing themselves in any way they choose.
I thought the most interesting aspect of this chapter is the fact that the author is from Trinidad. She talks a lot about being colonized and forced to speak their oppressors tongue. This made me think of the Native Americans more than the African Americas. Native American language is so completely wiped out, it never crosses our mind. Also, in the sentence where she realizes that "the colonizer only values the native tongue in the realm of entertainment" , I thought of how many times in our media we have made fun of the Native American language. If you don't believe me, go back and watch Disney's Peter Pan- there's a whole comedic song- " Why Is The Red Man Red". The African American is in a different situation than those in Trinidad. They were not colonized, but became a part of American culture after it was established in the area (albeit not by choice).
ReplyDeleteI think she was stronger than her siblings. She had to go through more personal, internal and social struggle to try and succeed. She also obviously did not allow herself to loose her "black" forms of speech.
I think we need to be open and accepting of those students who speak in different ways, be it Ebonics or Spanish we come across in our classrooms. Our subject is the one of communication and if we are unwilling to try and communicate and respect them, why should they try to do so with us? However, I do think that teaching Standard American English is important. Not only is it neglect to not teach Standard American English because of testing, but it's also neglect because we would not be preparing them for life after school. I have always believed that school has to be preparation for life, if not, it's just a waste of time. By not requiring our students to learn the mainstream socially acceptable English we are doing them a disservice.
I agree, that a journal that can be written in their dialect is a good idea. At the same time, require something more formal like a letter to the senator assignment written in Standard American English.
Why not teach them about code switching and when it it important?
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Erin. “Code switching” is an unfortunate method that people must use in order to achieve success. Unfortunately, it is what is expected of us, and if we were to not teach this to students we would be setting them up for failure. “Code Switching” effects everyone, it doesn’t necessarily have to do with skin color; it can also have a lot do to with where you live. I started thinking about Southern accents when I was reading this; a lot of people have said that they try to conceal their Southern accents, because others may think that they are “uneducated” or “unintelligent.”
ReplyDeleteAs many of you have already acknowledged, Standard English is what's expected in the professional world, and we must let that be known to our students. It's not about "acting/speaking white," it's about giving our students the tools for succeeding in a world that it is imperative to "communicate clearly and effectively," as Erin phrased it.
ReplyDeleteI really liked the theme that was happening in this chapter. I feel like it is something that goes on in every child throughout grade school. Children "act" to be able to fit in, to be who they think the teachers want them to be, etc. Even though this type of behavior goes far beyond language, it is most devastating to take in that children still have so much trouble being themselves. Being accepted as who they are culture, language and all. As teachers, I think it will be important to pick texts at times to show people who have triumphed through embracing their ancestry, cultural background, and native tongue.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Stephen. I just think it will be somewhat difficult to do so whenever we also teach them that their backgrounds are important and that they should embrace that.
ReplyDeleteI agree with what Rose said why not just teach them about code switching. Explain that it is something everyone does and try to match up when we speak differently and what is appropriate.
ReplyDeleteI also agree with Abby we should pick texts that will highlight multiple different cultures and characters. We should continuously try to broaden the world for our students and nit try to box them in.
The speaker was in a hard position as a child. It would have been hard being pulled in both directions -- not knowing which side to stand most firmly on..or to stand equally on both sides perhaps. I like the comment she makes near the end of the chapter stating that, "The central concern is about having the freedom to go back and forth from the home language to the public language without feeling a sense of inferiority" (p.13).
ReplyDeleteI agree with the comment that Stephen made...that it's about training students -- providing them with tools to succeed in a world where certain things are expected.
ReplyDeleteI think the chapter " Ovuh Dyuh" is ironic, because it shows how one is forced to speak another type of language is not their own and must go "ovuh dyuh" to be accepted. A language that is spoken by the majority, which is the British accent. Even though the narrator was able to switch from English to Trinidadian, it still was not good enough or acceptable to everyone else. I think the most important task should be is to teach our children what is mostly acceptable in society, because I know I would feel guilty if I taught a language that would hinder then from succeeding in life.
ReplyDeleteAt the same time teaching our youth the most acceptable and language in society, I also think that it is important to teach other types of languages, so that they are exposed to multi cultural languages and heritages.
ReplyDelete