I think I finally understand that Joan Wynne wants teachers and teachers in-training to recognize that Eubonics or AAVE have just as much richness and value as standard English. My question is are they really different languages than standard English or are they simply different dialects of the same language? Either way is everyone supposed to learn and use these dialects interchangably or are we only supposed to have a respect for them and never truly understand the inner workings of these dialects or languages? I know that I have no grasp of either of these languages/dialects. I supposed that even my own instruction has lead me to think that anything besides standard English was just wrong. I like the idea of encountering "otherness" more in the classroom. I think we (those of use educated in my own generation) lost some part of our history not encountering these languages and the concept of "otherness" more often and in a different light in our classrooms.
Danielle, that is a very controversial question and linguists are divided. Some say AAVE is a dialect of American English which itself is heavily influenced by multiple languages (Latin, German, pre-Gaelic/ Gaelic to name a few). Others point to the large number of African borrowings and the sentence structure to prove that it is a separate language. Without studying the language myself I'm not sure which side of the debate I'm more inclined to join. Either way I don't think it matters so long as you appreciate the dialect/language for its own sake without negative biases. It is recommended that you learn some the language/dialect (even if you just understand and don't speak AAVE) so you can communicate with students more effectively and appreciate their native tongue. If you are planning on working in a school where AAVE is the majority I would definitely learn to speak the dialect/ language. Some schools offer courses for their teachers, particularly since there are regional sub-dialects.
There are regional sub-dialects? Cool. I never thought of AAVE having regional differences throughout the country. It seems obvious now. I would say that, that fact would lean even more toward seeing AAVE as its own language, but like I said, I don’t have much experience on the subject. It scares me that I’m just learning all of this now. Why didn’t I have some idea of AAVE intricacies back in high school at least? Hasn’t this dialect/language been around a long time? Certainly, as long as I’ve been in school. Racism might have had something do to do with that you think? I guess it would also be the perpetuation of Standard English as the only right way to speak.
Yes. Regional differences do have an important role in AAVE. What I say to my friends in Athens-AAVE sub-dialect would have "southernisms" that New York AAVE-speakers would not include and probably not understand as easily.
The same is true of Romanichal language/ dialects that Roma (Gypsies) use. Each clan has its own sub-dialects which are sometimes so incomprehensible that they are almost individual languages and inter-clan communication is nearly impossible. In the past decade there has been a push to create a standard written language by some of the Romani clans to facilitate communication--especially since a written form of the language has never existed before. To my knowledge cultural/clan pride has never dictated the belief that any one dialect is better than another--hopefully it will remain so if and when a base written-language is created.
You're exactly right, Danielle; racism and the view that Standard English is the only "appropriate" dialect have been the chief reasons for AAVE's "invisibility". It also has a lot to do with demographics. If you went to schools that didn't have a high incidence of diversity and white students were the majority it is less likely that you would have heard AAVE.
I absolutely love the quote that opens this chapter: "The world is richer than it is possible to express in any single language." It is by Ilya Prigogine, physical chemist and Nobel Laureate. Again, I see this quote as an entry way, a hook, into a class discussion of uses of standard vs. nonstandard English.
I also feel that the vignette at the beginning of the chapter was extremely powerful. I feel (less so after reading this book) largely naive of the psychological damages that language biases can cause. I had originally viewed language bias as a political powerplay without really considering the specific consequences.
I was excited to find the "What should happen in the classroom" section. I think this is the question that we have all been asking ourselves all along. Unfortunately I was a little disappointed with the information that followed such an enticing header. I agree with and am interested in constructing a unit in dialect. I also agree with Walt Wolfram in that the "activities in such units should make it possible for students to 'discover generalizations and systematicities in their own speech and in the speech of others.'" However, this idea is not elaborated upon. What do all of you think? Would a unit on dialect be beneficial? What would it look like?
This chapter made me think about my appreciation for language. You know how you hear people talk about language being beautiful? Well, how would language be beautiful, or unique, or anything but standard if we just subdued our students to Standard English? That really got me because I started to think about how "standard" would sound like and how boring it would be. I love the idea of appreciating ALL language and making certain that we take away the superiority that many associate with standard English. I was pleased to read that yeah, Standard English is something that a lot of people are going to see as a measuring bar, but that doesn't mean that an appreciation and acceptance of various forms of English can't be preached.
This chapter was a huge bummer for me to read. Granted, I don't think anyone here is naive enough to say that going to college in anything qualifies you to necessarily be a teacher. I have been beating myself up for not being an English major and feeling that in the end, it is going to leave me ill-equipped to be a teacher. On the flip side of this, I've never questioned or entertained the possibility that maybe being an English major not only doesn't prepare you to be an English teacher (beyond your content knowledge, most of which is often limited), but also that being an English major (or in the field) might put you at a disadvantage because of the rules you learn and how strictly many in the field adhere to them. Not only must we all be mindful of other cultural aspects of language, but we probably all have to un-learn a lot of stuff we have digested for decades in order to make that a possibility.
I am interested in race and I am interested in my involvement in the "system" that perpetuates racial characteristics (i.e. white privilege in our political/economic structure), but oddly enough, I've never once thought about language. That bums me out. I've always tried to take pride in the fact that I am this level-headed, open-minded, Liberal-ish guy who openly accepts everyone and yada yada yada, but that too is probably just a guise, because I definitely make snap judgments as mentioned in this chapter. We all do. I've foolishly re-stated really ignorant statements conveniently in a thick, Southern accent, while spewing condemnation as folks on the right side of the spectrum who are often beating their chests, saying "ENGLISH ONLY!" and equating those who can't speak it with being unintelligent.
I was also happy to see a "what to do in the classroom" section in this chapter. I think this chapter is really about tolerance; as teachers we may not approve of the way our students talk, but we have to get over it. We must keep an open mind to different cultures and ways of speaking. I'm not suggesting that we completely forget about teaching Standard English, but we need to remind students that it is okay to be themselves and it is nothing to ashamed of. I also thought it was great that this chapter mentioned how much white students can learn from the "beauty and richness" of African American language. It is rare to find only one right answer to a question, and language is just another example of this. In my opinion, one of the most important things we should remember when thinking about the differences regarding language is the quote from The Hero with a Thousand Faces..."that he and his opposite are not of differing species, but one flesh."
I agree with Brent. Our language is beautiful from all the broken, innovative conversations and words that are used constantly in our everyday vernacular. It would be so boring and rigid if we talked in a standard way all the time. All little clones walking around too while we are at it.
The line "And by teaching children that their language is inferior, we teach a lie" really stuck with me. It just goes along with all of the other parts we have read. We as teachers have to find some way to show how beautiful and unique their own culture is. It is only whenever we take the time to show that and allow them to show who they are through their language that we will be able to teach them. I just am unsure how we as teachers will be able to do that for every student? I like Erin was underhwlemed by the explanation of what I should do in a classroom. But, maybe since we are still noobs, we are looking for something more step-by-step to go with out zero experience, ha.
I loved the quote "by neglecting to teach about the beauty and richness of the language of Black America, we also damage White Children." It just really struck me how much we should considering learning Ebonics as important as teaching standard English. See, back when I was in school, we didn't even touch the word "Ebonics" and it was just about "talking right." But now, as teachers, it only makes sense that we teach all the different types of language. I mean, how else can teachers relate to their students unless they teach things about each culture? By teaching different languages and showing that one language is not primative to another, we help establish that sense of equality between students. We erase that concept that there is one "pure" language.
But I agree with Abby, how could a teacher be able to do that for every student?
Amber, I agree completely with you that this chapter was telling students just to be themselves and nothing less. If we were to help students see the beauty of all languages, we would help them feel so much better about who they are I believe. If a student is comfortable because a teacher is open to teaching them about different languages, then this could open the doors to so many more topics to be discussed in a classroom. It is truly a beneficial idea that should be looked at I believe.
Wynne presents an idea on page 214 that I'd like to use in my own classroom. She begins by listing a few examples of how Black English is used in mainstream society even though it is considered inferior. She suggests we share with our students these contradictions and open up a conversation about the political nature of language. I think this would be a great way to acknowledge Black English on a higher level. I can see this conversation easily developing into a persuasive essay assignment.
While reading this chapter I became interested in the geography of the situation. When the author comments about her experience in South Africa and about being with the children who are able to switch languages and dialects, I couldn't help but think about Europe vs. The United States. LIke Africa, there is much more of a wide variety of culture in Europe that is concentrated in different places and people easily come in contact with others of different cultures. Over here in North America, that opportunity does not exist as readily, which I believe does not help Ebonics discrimination. If our white culture was in close proximity of other cultures, Standard English would not be seen as an elevated mode of speech. When Wynne spoke about surveys she gave out at a "university" about Standard English and Ebonics, I wondered which state the "university" was in. I feel that if it is a university with students who do not often come into contact with African Americans, the results would be different than if it was a university with students who do.
I would agree with Erin that I was somewhat disappointed as well by the amount of elaboration that was lacking from that section. I feel like he could have given us a little more somewhere because I am still confused as to how to teach it in the classroom beyond a unit on dialects. I think a unit on dialects would be really helpful and is a good idea. But I am still having a hard time understanding how to make students and everyone else believe that all dialects are equal when we still use the standard in the most important fields. I think it is great to remind white children especially that our dialect is no better than someone else's, but in all honesty, how do we judge our president or presidential candidates. JFK and Obama both have a talent for speaking and are eloquent. People think they sound "good" and don't necessarily listen to what they say but how they say it. I just need more information maybe?
I was also struck by the line that Abby pointed out. No one should be taught that their language is inferior. As we have stated before it is important to teach code switching. I also want to bring back up what Rose mentioned with teaching each other classes. I think if we try to learn AAVE and not in a mocking way, our students might appreciate it.
I think the idea that language can be so different is a really cool thing. How boring would it be if everyone spoke and wrote Standard English all the time. I think it makes things interesting -- writing, television, conversations with strangers. It's sad that these differences can have such negative effects on students, and I think it's important that we take time to understand where each student is coming from.
I too like what Abby said. It kind of goes with my first comment -- that no language is inferior and no student should be taught that. We shouldn't teach in a manner that tells students their way of speaking/writing is wrong. Instead, we need to enforce the idea of code-switching.
In the section "Teaching language supremacy distorts reality for mainstream children" Wynne makes a good point that by not introducing Black English to all races, we are trapping them from the world's reality. As he also says that this prohibits everyone working together in a peaceful environment. By teaching students about other cultures at a young age, they will be more likely to accept people of different races.
I think I finally understand that Joan Wynne wants teachers and teachers in-training to recognize that Eubonics or AAVE have just as much richness and value as standard English. My question is are they really different languages than standard English or are they simply different dialects of the same language? Either way is everyone supposed to learn and use these dialects interchangably or are we only supposed to have a respect for them and never truly understand the inner workings of these dialects or languages? I know that I have no grasp of either of these languages/dialects. I supposed that even my own instruction has lead me to think that anything besides standard English was just wrong. I like the idea of encountering "otherness" more in the classroom. I think we (those of use educated in my own generation) lost some part of our history not encountering these languages and the concept of "otherness" more often and in a different light in our classrooms.
ReplyDeleteDanielle, that is a very controversial question and linguists are divided. Some say AAVE is a dialect of American English which itself is heavily influenced by multiple languages (Latin, German, pre-Gaelic/ Gaelic to name a few). Others point to the large number of African borrowings and the sentence structure to prove that it is a separate language. Without studying the language myself I'm not sure which side of the debate I'm more inclined to join. Either way I don't think it matters so long as you appreciate the dialect/language for its own sake without negative biases. It is recommended that you learn some the language/dialect (even if you just understand and don't speak AAVE) so you can communicate with students more effectively and appreciate their native tongue. If you are planning on working in a school where AAVE is the majority I would definitely learn to speak the dialect/ language. Some schools offer courses for their teachers, particularly since there are regional sub-dialects.
ReplyDeleteThere are regional sub-dialects? Cool. I never thought of AAVE having regional differences throughout the country. It seems obvious now. I would say that, that fact would lean even more toward seeing AAVE as its own language, but like I said, I don’t have much experience on the subject. It scares me that I’m just learning all of this now. Why didn’t I have some idea of AAVE intricacies back in high school at least? Hasn’t this dialect/language been around a long time? Certainly, as long as I’ve been in school. Racism might have had something do to do with that you think? I guess it would also be the perpetuation of Standard English as the only right way to speak.
ReplyDeleteYes. Regional differences do have an important role in AAVE. What I say to my friends in Athens-AAVE sub-dialect would have "southernisms" that New York AAVE-speakers would not include and probably not understand as easily.
ReplyDeleteThe same is true of Romanichal language/ dialects that Roma (Gypsies) use. Each clan has its own sub-dialects which are sometimes so incomprehensible that they are almost individual languages and inter-clan communication is nearly impossible. In the past decade there has been a push to create a standard written language by some of the Romani clans to facilitate communication--especially since a written form of the language has never existed before. To my knowledge cultural/clan pride has never dictated the belief that any one dialect is better than another--hopefully it will remain so if and when a base written-language is created.
You're exactly right, Danielle; racism and the view that Standard English is the only "appropriate" dialect have been the chief reasons for AAVE's "invisibility". It also has a lot to do with demographics. If you went to schools that didn't have a high incidence of diversity and white students were the majority it is less likely that you would have heard AAVE.
I absolutely love the quote that opens this chapter: "The world is richer than it is possible to express in any single language." It is by Ilya Prigogine, physical chemist and Nobel Laureate. Again, I see this quote as an entry way, a hook, into a class discussion of uses of standard vs. nonstandard English.
ReplyDeleteI also feel that the vignette at the beginning of the chapter was extremely powerful. I feel (less so after reading this book) largely naive of the psychological damages that language biases can cause. I had originally viewed language bias as a political powerplay without really considering the specific consequences.
I was excited to find the "What should happen in the classroom" section. I think this is the question that we have all been asking ourselves all along. Unfortunately I was a little disappointed with the information that followed such an enticing header. I agree with and am interested in constructing a unit in dialect. I also agree with Walt Wolfram in that the "activities in such units should make it possible for students to 'discover generalizations and systematicities in their own speech and in the speech of others.'" However, this idea is not elaborated upon. What do all of you think? Would a unit on dialect be beneficial? What would it look like?
ReplyDeleteThis chapter made me think about my appreciation for language. You know how you hear people talk about language being beautiful? Well, how would language be beautiful, or unique, or anything but standard if we just subdued our students to Standard English? That really got me because I started to think about how "standard" would sound like and how boring it would be. I love the idea of appreciating ALL language and making certain that we take away the superiority that many associate with standard English. I was pleased to read that yeah, Standard English is something that a lot of people are going to see as a measuring bar, but that doesn't mean that an appreciation and acceptance of various forms of English can't be preached.
ReplyDeleteThis chapter was a huge bummer for me to read. Granted, I don't think anyone here is naive enough to say that going to college in anything qualifies you to necessarily be a teacher. I have been beating myself up for not being an English major and feeling that in the end, it is going to leave me ill-equipped to be a teacher. On the flip side of this, I've never questioned or entertained the possibility that maybe being an English major not only doesn't prepare you to be an English teacher (beyond your content knowledge, most of which is often limited), but also that being an English major (or in the field) might put you at a disadvantage because of the rules you learn and how strictly many in the field adhere to them. Not only must we all be mindful of other cultural aspects of language, but we probably all have to un-learn a lot of stuff we have digested for decades in order to make that a possibility.
ReplyDeleteI am interested in race and I am interested in my involvement in the "system" that perpetuates racial characteristics (i.e. white privilege in our political/economic structure), but oddly enough, I've never once thought about language. That bums me out. I've always tried to take pride in the fact that I am this level-headed, open-minded, Liberal-ish guy who openly accepts everyone and yada yada yada, but that too is probably just a guise, because I definitely make snap judgments as mentioned in this chapter. We all do. I've foolishly re-stated really ignorant statements conveniently in a thick, Southern accent, while spewing condemnation as folks on the right side of the spectrum who are often beating their chests, saying "ENGLISH ONLY!" and equating those who can't speak it with being unintelligent.
I suuuuuuuck.
I was also happy to see a "what to do in the classroom" section in this chapter. I think this chapter is really about tolerance; as teachers we may not approve of the way our students talk, but we have to get over it. We must keep an open mind to different cultures and ways of speaking. I'm not suggesting that we completely forget about teaching Standard English, but we need to remind students that it is okay to be themselves and it is nothing to ashamed of. I also thought it was great that this chapter mentioned how much white students can learn from the "beauty and richness" of African American language. It is rare to find only one right answer to a question, and language is just another example of this. In my opinion, one of the most important things we should remember when thinking about the differences regarding language is the quote from The Hero with a Thousand Faces..."that he and his opposite are not of differing species, but one flesh."
ReplyDeleteI agree with Brent. Our language is beautiful from all the broken, innovative conversations and words that are used constantly in our everyday vernacular. It would be so boring and rigid if we talked in a standard way all the time. All little clones walking around too while we are at it.
ReplyDeleteThe line "And by teaching children that their language is inferior, we teach a lie" really stuck with me. It just goes along with all of the other parts we have read. We as teachers have to find some way to show how beautiful and unique their own culture is. It is only whenever we take the time to show that and allow them to show who they are through their language that we will be able to teach them. I just am unsure how we as teachers will be able to do that for every student? I like Erin was underhwlemed by the explanation of what I should do in a classroom. But, maybe since we are still noobs, we are looking for something more step-by-step to go with out zero experience, ha.
ReplyDeleteI loved the quote "by neglecting to teach about the beauty and richness of the language of Black America, we also damage White Children." It just really struck me how much we should considering learning Ebonics as important as teaching standard English. See, back when I was in school, we didn't even touch the word "Ebonics" and it was just about "talking right." But now, as teachers, it only makes sense that we teach all the different types of language. I mean, how else can teachers relate to their students unless they teach things about each culture? By teaching different languages and showing that one language is not primative to another, we help establish that sense of equality between students. We erase that concept that there is one "pure" language.
ReplyDeleteBut I agree with Abby, how could a teacher be able to do that for every student?
Amber, I agree completely with you that this chapter was telling students just to be themselves and nothing less. If we were to help students see the beauty of all languages, we would help them feel so much better about who they are I believe. If a student is comfortable because a teacher is open to teaching them about different languages, then this could open the doors to so many more topics to be discussed in a classroom. It is truly a beneficial idea that should be looked at I believe.
ReplyDeleteWynne presents an idea on page 214 that I'd like to use in my own classroom. She begins by listing a few examples of how Black English is used in mainstream society even though it is considered inferior. She suggests we share with our students these contradictions and open up a conversation about the political nature of language. I think this would be a great way to acknowledge Black English on a higher level. I can see this conversation easily developing into a persuasive essay assignment.
ReplyDeleteWhile reading this chapter I became interested in the geography of the situation. When the author comments about her experience in South Africa and about being with the children who are able to switch languages and dialects, I couldn't help but think about Europe vs. The United States. LIke Africa, there is much more of a wide variety of culture in Europe that is concentrated in different places and people easily come in contact with others of different cultures. Over here in North America, that opportunity does not exist as readily, which I believe does not help Ebonics discrimination. If our white culture was in close proximity of other cultures, Standard English would not be seen as an elevated mode of speech. When Wynne spoke about surveys she gave out at a "university" about Standard English and Ebonics, I wondered which state the "university" was in. I feel that if it is a university with students who do not often come into contact with African Americans, the results would be different than if it was a university with students who do.
ReplyDeleteI would agree with Erin that I was somewhat disappointed as well by the amount of elaboration that was lacking from that section. I feel like he could have given us a little more somewhere because I am still confused as to how to teach it in the classroom beyond a unit on dialects. I think a unit on dialects would be really helpful and is a good idea. But I am still having a hard time understanding how to make students and everyone else believe that all dialects are equal when we still use the standard in the most important fields. I think it is great to remind white children especially that our dialect is no better than someone else's, but in all honesty, how do we judge our president or presidential candidates. JFK and Obama both have a talent for speaking and are eloquent. People think they sound "good" and don't necessarily listen to what they say but how they say it. I just need more information maybe?
ReplyDeleteI was also struck by the line that Abby pointed out. No one should be taught that their language is inferior. As we have stated before it is important to teach code switching. I also want to bring back up what Rose mentioned with teaching each other classes. I think if we try to learn AAVE and not in a mocking way, our students might appreciate it.
ReplyDeleteI think the idea that language can be so different is a really cool thing. How boring would it be if everyone spoke and wrote Standard English all the time. I think it makes things interesting -- writing, television, conversations with strangers. It's sad that these differences can have such negative effects on students, and I think it's important that we take time to understand where each student is coming from.
ReplyDeleteI too like what Abby said. It kind of goes with my first comment -- that no language is inferior and no student should be taught that. We shouldn't teach in a manner that tells students their way of speaking/writing is wrong. Instead, we need to enforce the idea of code-switching.
ReplyDeleteIn the section "Teaching language supremacy distorts reality for mainstream children" Wynne makes a good point that by not introducing Black English to all races, we are trapping them from the world's reality. As he also says that this prohibits everyone working together in a peaceful environment. By teaching students about other cultures at a young age, they will be more likely to accept people of different races.
ReplyDelete