I have a hard time relating to the teachers who allow students to fail, which is a good thing for me I guess. I can't seem to rationalize these teachers allowing students to make excuses like little Shannon at the beginning of chapter 7. I would really like to know when/if there was a time when Shannon had to do something because a teacher would not allow her to give an excuse. I was impressed with Carter scaffoled his students into writing and allowed them to explore language at the same time. Both chapters 7&8 go along nicely with Weaver text. Not that they say exactly the same things, but I think these chapters deepen the ideas presented in Weaver (if that's at all possible). Everything that has to do with learning a langauge have to change from 90% skill-based and 10% literature-based. The teachers we need to emulate are the ones that include not only the abilities that go into writing, but also the act of writing.
I was struck by something Ladson-Billings said on page 118, "He had to keep a sense of uncertainty and a willingness to question [his assumptions about his students and his teaching] in the forefront of his mind". We've heard this before but I think this is important for us to remember, especially when trying to push past our own sociocultural boundaries to reach our students. It is easy to give up, pass out a worksheet and move on to another student. As novice teachers we cannot give up and allow our students to fail because of negligence. Once we have more experience we cannot get comfortable and stop questioning. We must constantly balance between engaging our students and questioning what we are doing to make the lessons clearer, more effective, and deepen long-term understandings with culturally relevant material. Today my host teacher said that the most important thing a teacher can do is question their own methods and adapt to students' needs to help them understand. We have to. They depend on us.
Kids often look to adults for guidance and it is silly to think that a teacher who doesn't push a student towards success is a competent teacher. I really like the idea of "demanding success." It got me to thinking about ways to get kids to buy into that idea. I noticed that none of the other students encouraged Shannon to write a sentence or talk about her weekend. That is something that shouldn't happen in a classroom. This chapter lead me to the idea we've already talked about with community building in the classroom. If as teachers, we can establish a team identity and eliminate the competitiveness of single student success oriented classroom, the success will come. I'm a big sports fan and often think of life in aspects of how sports work. Teams win and teams become successful, not individuals. So, wouldn't it make sense that a classroom full of students who want to work together and be a team, would be successful? It absolutely does. Now, it is easier said than done, but the more I read about various issues in the classroom, including the way students speak, write, or behave, the more I realize the success of students starts with community.
I like that this chapter doesn't just pose a problem, but shows an example of how the problem can be fixed...at least in one way. I think that starting from material they can RELATE to, talking about the story with a literacy level and content they understood, and then pushing them to go farther is great. So maybe you don't start out using the standard English form or grammatically correct language, but getting the kids to respond and at least try is demanding success in my opinion. I think a lot of us are going to go out there and face these problems as brand new teachers with innovative ideas that we want to put to work immediately, but knowing that we are going to struggle is important. And knowing that demanding success is the right thing to do versus letting them fail is also important. So, I know I don't understand a lot about Montessori school, but Montessori and those schools we looked at this summer remind me of letting kids fail. Those schools believe the children should run their own curriculum and decide when and how to do their work, but if Carter did that then they would be failing. Were all those kids from some of the schools we looked at failing? And I don't just think this has to do with African American children. It happens all the time in schools. The kids who fly under the radar are constantly allowed to fail instead of being pushed...
Brent, Your comment made me think how to focus on students like Shannon. Clearly a teacher with that many students in a classroom cannot devote as much time is needed to someone like Shannon, but you made a good point to get the kids involved in the encouragement process. A teacher should make it clear form the start that she expects her students to help her teach. Maybe make it a classroom rule to keep others on task by encouraging them to at least try or help them out when you are done with your own so there is never down time? How does a teacher help Shannon and all the others?
I thought this chapter seemed a little like common sense to me, but clearly it is not, given the tendency of teachers to "let students fail". I think this echoes that last chapter we read, where teacher behavior is pointed at as being the "real problem". They attribute it to a lack of cultural competence in the chapter, and I sort of agree with that sentiment. I suppose that is why we are pretty lucky in that regard, to be in a program right now that COULD be merely teaching us pedagogy and content, but is instead to devoting the entire semester to discussing cultural difference and how to approach it, as well as the development of our students. I think it will better serve us in the long run, than reading textbooks about teaching that we could read on our own. I'm really enjoying this part. I like Brent's analogy of sports; I think they would respond positively to immediately creating an environment of team work. Also, it is just common knowledge that kids like to feel valued. We've gone over it in the behavior class, we've gone over it in the lessons on workshops; having student helpers helps both the class and the student. I see no reason why that can't be extrapolated even further, where everyone is a helper and everyone has a role that the class considers important.
I feel like everyone is being way more eloquent than I am in these posts.
I agree with Brittany, this chapter sets the problem and gives a great example of how it could be fixed. I could not help but to think of all the different the high expectations related research and text we have been discussing. This chapter really brought home how detrimental it could be not holding children to those expectations. I felt so bad for Shannon, my heart goes out for every child who is allowed to slip through the cracks of our educational system. Carter is motivational to say the least. I loved the way he presented characters and story to his class here. This is an activity I wouldn't mind trying. I agree that with this lesson he not only taught Reading but Writing as well- awesome.
Creating a team atmosphere should be number one on the list shouldn’t it? Teachers that do their best to make a classroom of students more like a team succeed in getting students to encourage each other and raise the standard of work. I noticed in my host teacher’s class, there was a lack of synergy. The teacher didn’t put effort into creating this type of classroom, so maybe some of the students didn’t try on any assignment because they thought he didn’t care whether they failed or passed. I think that’s why students don’t try or do as well because they think, “the teacher doesn’t care, my classmates don’t care, so why should I?”
You're right, Danielle. Team atmosphere is important. When no one cares or seems to care how well a student does in class how are students supposed to care about school outside the classroom? When we care and we show we care by praising student effort, posting their papers on the wall when they make good grades, encourage positive discussions in the class among students and teachers, and make positive phone calls home they know we care and that we are tracking their work. They will achieve first to please us and then hopefully to please themselves which is really the ultimate goal. Life long learning because they want to.
The concept of "permission to fail" really impacted me because this is something that I saw a lot of in my first placement, especially in my inclusion class. In this class there was absolutely no "demanding success." My inclusion teacher's only method of modification was to read aloud rather than have students read assignments silently to themselves. She expected her special education students to fail and awarded them when they achieved low C's. I feel that this goes against everything we have learned about teacher expectations. Why should a special education student feel that a C is acceptable when regular education students are encourage to reach for the A? We must demand success.
One of the quotes that struck me as particularly interesting was "In the classroom Carter could not be described as demonstrative or as a 'warm fuzzy' teacher. He has a business-like demeanor. Carter does not talk about "loving" his students. Rather he focuses on "caring" about and for them." (119) When I think about myself as a teacher "business-like" is not exactly the description that comes to mind, yet Ladson-Billings seems to endorse Carter's approach. How do you feel about teaching as comparable to business? Also what is the distinction between "caring" and "loving"? Is it okay to love your students?
I love the quote "the magic is the teaching" which I think has summed up almost everything that we have learned in this chapter. It really is all about how the teacher teaches their students. I loved the fact that Carter put his practice into teaching, and how he didn't just focus on having them "pass" but to have them "succeed." He didn't just want them to pass, he wanted them to make sure that they could connect to what they were learning. So I think that by incorporating the idea of music with them was a phenomenal idea. I found in my previous placement that students really do become more focused when you relate to things that they like or know. So I suppose that Ladson-Billings is correct in saying that "the magic is in the teaching."
Erin, I think that there is a fine line between the whole "loving" and "Caring" that Ladson-Billings is referring to. That part had me confused at first too. I was wondering "well aren't teachers supposed to come across as loving and caring?" Sure the classroom doesn't have to be "warm and fuzzy" but does that mean it can't be inviting?
I think business and teaching are two completely separate things. I think that teachers can treat their job like a profession as people would in a business profession. But I think that they shouldn't treat their students as a "Business." Sure in a classroom you should make sure that students "Get down to business" when it comes to their education, but teaching to me isn't a business. It's an experience and just has so many more components than a business.
All in all, I think that teaching cannot really be compared to business. They are (to me) two completely separate things and professions all together.
And by all means it is okay to love your students. I mean, teachers who do not love or care for their students clearly show it. They usually are not very effective teachers. Why would someone be a teacher if they didn't love students? Seems kinda absurb but there are those who do it.
I remember witnessing a lot of the "permission to fail" attitude when I was in middle and high school. In reference to the student Shannon, "Her resistance is a challenge for her teachers, but it is their challenge." I totally agree with this; students that are resistant are challenging, but a crucial part of teaching is knowing how to deal with stubborn attitudes and finding ways to help students become engaged. We can't force our students to learn new things or complete their assignments, but we can let them know that we have high expectations and that we are not going to tolerate anything less from them.
On page 110, whenever he talks about the ploy to cover up what they do not know or cannot do by refusing to participate or comply to teachers wishing, I have seen first hand. It reminds me of the exercises we did over the summer to be able to recognize the difference of when they can't do something and when they won't. As a teacher, I think it will be a hard balance between allowing them to do exercises they are able to complete to get up their confidence and challenging them enough in a way that doesn't make them feel dumb.
Amber, I think that so many people do try to force them to complete assignments early on in their educational experience so that whenever they get into high school they have a long list of behavioral problems and a bad attitude toward learning. When really the whole time no on ever took the minute to find what gets that child engaged to learn more.
I really like the small and big "r" and "w" distinction that she goes into on p.117. Its another way to look at the significance of having the students do a "performance task," something the can do that has real purpose. I think its interesting that the students wanted to just do worksheets. I can't recall a time when I ever heard students say they'd prefer to do worksheets.
I feel like the author anticipated my reaction to her story about the young teacher, Carter. I was thinking that he already had somewhat of an advantage because the students could relate to him because he was black. I'm not sure that she is accurate to say that isn't a possibility.
However, I'd like to think that his business-like persona is something that really helped him out. I'm coming back around to the idea of the "performance task." From the description of Carter, he sounds like he runs his classroom the way an employer would handle his employees.
It looks like the "business" v. caring debate is in full swing here. I have to say, I really liked when I had a teacher that was "all business." I also really liked it when I had teachers that were very personal and caring. I think the important thing is that you have a very consistent and positive attitude. It is probably harder for a "warm and fuzzy" teacher to put their foot down when their students aren't meeting their expectations. Thats probably the most important difference between the two.
I think a large part of this "permission to fail" issue is that the teachers are sort of lazy. I have learned that when you teach students something, depending on how difficult the concept is there will always be some who don't understand (common sense) but they don't always want to ask questions because of possible embarrassment in front of their peers. Sometimes you have to look at your class and say something obvious like "do you get it?" in order to make sure everyone understands. We have discussed other options like having students repeat concepts back and having students discuss concepts to make sure they understand. Some of these teachers do not care to ask, they just teach their lessons, give them worksheets and tests, and when they see failing grades they just chalk it up to thinking that their students are inferior.
Commenting on what everyone else has referred to, the concept of the classroom as a team reminded me of Rafe Esquith. I completely agree with the idea of building a family or team in a classroom. I found it really disheartening in my placement when students would make fun of those reading aloud. It greatly frustrated me and they quickly learned it would not be tolerated when I was around. I think this is the first step we can take in having a classroom that promotes learning.
It's really sad to me that there are teachers out there who are okay with failing their students. I think that they should do everything in their power to help those students succeed -- it's their job as a teacher. They should want to help them and not let them to continue falling behind. Teachers need to step up and play the roles that they need to.
Going off of what Katie refers to about the classroom acting as a team, this is such an important concept -- for students to want to help each other and encourage each other instead or tearing one another down. It's not good for anyone in the class. I've had good experiences in the classroom with students -- most of them seem to stand behind each other. This is the environment all teachers should strive to promote in their classrooms.
I like the way Mr Forshay created his way of engaging the students to write and actually want to write and enjoy it. I think it is very important for students to be interested in the work they are doing. I know this isn't possible in some other subject, but writing exercises allow so much creativity. And also having the students read their final product in front of other classrooms will make their whole writing process more rewarding.
The "business" versus "caring" debate that Wes was talking about is beyond the truth. By making the best effort of combining the two in the most equal manner will make a huge difference in teaching and learning. This is true because students respond better when they know you truly care about them while also demanding structure and respect, the "business" part.
I have a hard time relating to the teachers who allow students to fail, which is a good thing for me I guess. I can't seem to rationalize these teachers allowing students to make excuses like little Shannon at the beginning of chapter 7. I would really like to know when/if there was a time when Shannon had to do something because a teacher would not allow her to give an excuse. I was impressed with Carter scaffoled his students into writing and allowed them to explore language at the same time. Both chapters 7&8 go along nicely with Weaver text. Not that they say exactly the same things, but I think these chapters deepen the ideas presented in Weaver (if that's at all possible). Everything that has to do with learning a langauge have to change from 90% skill-based and 10% literature-based. The teachers we need to emulate are the ones that include not only the abilities that go into writing, but also the act of writing.
ReplyDeleteI was struck by something Ladson-Billings said on page 118, "He had to keep a sense of uncertainty and a willingness to question [his assumptions about his students and his teaching] in the forefront of his mind". We've heard this before but I think this is important for us to remember, especially when trying to push past our own sociocultural boundaries to reach our students. It is easy to give up, pass out a worksheet and move on to another student.
ReplyDeleteAs novice teachers we cannot give up and allow our students to fail because of negligence. Once we have more experience we cannot get comfortable and stop questioning. We must constantly balance between engaging our students and questioning what we are doing to make the lessons clearer, more effective, and deepen long-term understandings with culturally relevant material.
Today my host teacher said that the most important thing a teacher can do is question their own methods and adapt to students' needs to help them understand. We have to.
They depend on us.
Kids often look to adults for guidance and it is silly to think that a teacher who doesn't push a student towards success is a competent teacher. I really like the idea of "demanding success." It got me to thinking about ways to get kids to buy into that idea. I noticed that none of the other students encouraged Shannon to write a sentence or talk about her weekend. That is something that shouldn't happen in a classroom. This chapter lead me to the idea we've already talked about with community building in the classroom. If as teachers, we can establish a team identity and eliminate the competitiveness of single student success oriented classroom, the success will come. I'm a big sports fan and often think of life in aspects of how sports work. Teams win and teams become successful, not individuals. So, wouldn't it make sense that a classroom full of students who want to work together and be a team, would be successful? It absolutely does. Now, it is easier said than done, but the more I read about various issues in the classroom, including the way students speak, write, or behave, the more I realize the success of students starts with community.
ReplyDeleteI like that this chapter doesn't just pose a problem, but shows an example of how the problem can be fixed...at least in one way. I think that starting from material they can RELATE to, talking about the story with a literacy level and content they understood, and then pushing them to go farther is great. So maybe you don't start out using the standard English form or grammatically correct language, but getting the kids to respond and at least try is demanding success in my opinion. I think a lot of us are going to go out there and face these problems as brand new teachers with innovative ideas that we want to put to work immediately, but knowing that we are going to struggle is important. And knowing that demanding success is the right thing to do versus letting them fail is also important. So, I know I don't understand a lot about Montessori school, but Montessori and those schools we looked at this summer remind me of letting kids fail. Those schools believe the children should run their own curriculum and decide when and how to do their work, but if Carter did that then they would be failing.
ReplyDeleteWere all those kids from some of the schools we looked at failing? And I don't just think this has to do with African American children. It happens all the time in schools. The kids who fly under the radar are constantly allowed to fail instead of being pushed...
Brent,
ReplyDeleteYour comment made me think how to focus on students like Shannon. Clearly a teacher with that many students in a classroom cannot devote as much time is needed to someone like Shannon, but you made a good point to get the kids involved in the encouragement process. A teacher should make it clear form the start that she expects her students to help her teach. Maybe make it a classroom rule to keep others on task by encouraging them to at least try or help them out when you are done with your own so there is never down time? How does a teacher help Shannon and all the others?
I thought this chapter seemed a little like common sense to me, but clearly it is not, given the tendency of teachers to "let students fail". I think this echoes that last chapter we read, where teacher behavior is pointed at as being the "real problem". They attribute it to a lack of cultural competence in the chapter, and I sort of agree with that sentiment. I suppose that is why we are pretty lucky in that regard, to be in a program right now that COULD be merely teaching us pedagogy and content, but is instead to devoting the entire semester to discussing cultural difference and how to approach it, as well as the development of our students. I think it will better serve us in the long run, than reading textbooks about teaching that we could read on our own. I'm really enjoying this part. I like Brent's analogy of sports; I think they would respond positively to immediately creating an environment of team work. Also, it is just common knowledge that kids like to feel valued. We've gone over it in the behavior class, we've gone over it in the lessons on workshops; having student helpers helps both the class and the student. I see no reason why that can't be extrapolated even further, where everyone is a helper and everyone has a role that the class considers important.
ReplyDeleteI feel like everyone is being way more eloquent than I am in these posts.
I agree with Brittany, this chapter sets the problem and gives a great example of how it could be fixed. I could not help but to think of all the different the high expectations related research and text we have been discussing. This chapter really brought home how detrimental it could be not holding children to those expectations. I felt so bad for Shannon, my heart goes out for every child who is allowed to slip through the cracks of our educational system.
ReplyDeleteCarter is motivational to say the least. I loved the way he presented characters and story to his class here. This is an activity I wouldn't mind trying. I agree that with this lesson he not only taught Reading but Writing as well- awesome.
Creating a team atmosphere should be number one on the list shouldn’t it? Teachers that do their best to make a classroom of students more like a team succeed in getting students to encourage each other and raise the standard of work. I noticed in my host teacher’s class, there was a lack of synergy. The teacher didn’t put effort into creating this type of classroom, so maybe some of the students didn’t try on any assignment because they thought he didn’t care whether they failed or passed. I think that’s why students don’t try or do as well because they think, “the teacher doesn’t care, my classmates don’t care, so why should I?”
ReplyDeleteYou're right, Danielle. Team atmosphere is important. When no one cares or seems to care how well a student does in class how are students supposed to care about school outside the classroom? When we care and we show we care by praising student effort, posting their papers on the wall when they make good grades, encourage positive discussions in the class among students and teachers, and make positive phone calls home they know we care and that we are tracking their work. They will achieve first to please us and then hopefully to please themselves which is really the ultimate goal. Life long learning because they want to.
ReplyDeleteThe concept of "permission to fail" really impacted me because this is something that I saw a lot of in my first placement, especially in my inclusion class. In this class there was absolutely no "demanding success." My inclusion teacher's only method of modification was to read aloud rather than have students read assignments silently to themselves. She expected her special education students to fail and awarded them when they achieved low C's. I feel that this goes against everything we have learned about teacher expectations. Why should a special education student feel that a C is acceptable when regular education students are encourage to reach for the A? We must demand success.
ReplyDeleteOne of the quotes that struck me as particularly interesting was "In the classroom Carter could not be described as demonstrative or as a 'warm fuzzy' teacher. He has a business-like demeanor. Carter does not talk about "loving" his students. Rather he focuses on "caring" about and for them." (119) When I think about myself as a teacher "business-like" is not exactly the description that comes to mind, yet Ladson-Billings seems to endorse Carter's approach. How do you feel about teaching as comparable to business? Also what is the distinction between "caring" and "loving"? Is it okay to love your students?
ReplyDeleteI love the quote "the magic is the teaching" which I think has summed up almost everything that we have learned in this chapter. It really is all about how the teacher teaches their students. I loved the fact that Carter put his practice into teaching, and how he didn't just focus on having them "pass" but to have them "succeed." He didn't just want them to pass, he wanted them to make sure that they could connect to what they were learning. So I think that by incorporating the idea of music with them was a phenomenal idea. I found in my previous placement that students really do become more focused when you relate to things that they like or know. So I suppose that Ladson-Billings is correct in saying that "the magic is in the teaching."
ReplyDeleteErin, I think that there is a fine line between the whole "loving" and "Caring" that Ladson-Billings is referring to. That part had me confused at first too. I was wondering "well aren't teachers supposed to come across as loving and caring?" Sure the classroom doesn't have to be "warm and fuzzy" but does that mean it can't be inviting?
ReplyDeleteI think business and teaching are two completely separate things. I think that teachers can treat their job like a profession as people would in a business profession. But I think that they shouldn't treat their students as a "Business." Sure in a classroom you should make sure that students "Get down to business" when it comes to their education, but teaching to me isn't a business. It's an experience and just has so many more components than a business.
All in all, I think that teaching cannot really be compared to business. They are (to me) two completely separate things and professions all together.
And by all means it is okay to love your students. I mean, teachers who do not love or care for their students clearly show it. They usually are not very effective teachers. Why would someone be a teacher if they didn't love students? Seems kinda absurb but there are those who do it.
I remember witnessing a lot of the "permission to fail" attitude when I was in middle and high school. In reference to the student Shannon, "Her resistance is a challenge for her teachers, but it is their challenge." I totally agree with this; students that are resistant are challenging, but a crucial part of teaching is knowing how to deal with stubborn attitudes and finding ways to help students become engaged. We can't force our students to learn new things or complete their assignments, but we can let them know that we have high expectations and that we are not going to tolerate anything less from them.
ReplyDeleteOn page 110, whenever he talks about the ploy to cover up what they do not know or cannot do by refusing to participate or comply to teachers wishing, I have seen first hand. It reminds me of the exercises we did over the summer to be able to recognize the difference of when they can't do something and when they won't. As a teacher, I think it will be a hard balance between allowing them to do exercises they are able to complete to get up their confidence and challenging them enough in a way that doesn't make them feel dumb.
ReplyDeleteAmber, I think that so many people do try to force them to complete assignments early on in their educational experience so that whenever they get into high school they have a long list of behavioral problems and a bad attitude toward learning. When really the whole time no on ever took the minute to find what gets that child engaged to learn more.
ReplyDeleteI really like the small and big "r" and "w" distinction that she goes into on p.117. Its another way to look at the significance of having the students do a "performance task," something the can do that has real purpose. I think its interesting that the students wanted to just do worksheets. I can't recall a time when I ever heard students say they'd prefer to do worksheets.
ReplyDeleteI feel like the author anticipated my reaction to her story about the young teacher, Carter. I was thinking that he already had somewhat of an advantage because the students could relate to him because he was black. I'm not sure that she is accurate to say that isn't a possibility.
However, I'd like to think that his business-like persona is something that really helped him out. I'm coming back around to the idea of the "performance task." From the description of Carter, he sounds like he runs his classroom the way an employer would handle his employees.
It looks like the "business" v. caring debate is in full swing here. I have to say, I really liked when I had a teacher that was "all business." I also really liked it when I had teachers that were very personal and caring. I think the important thing is that you have a very consistent and positive attitude. It is probably harder for a "warm and fuzzy" teacher to put their foot down when their students aren't meeting their expectations. Thats probably the most important difference between the two.
ReplyDeleteI think a large part of this "permission to fail" issue is that the teachers are sort of lazy. I have learned that when you teach students something, depending on how difficult the concept is there will always be some who don't understand (common sense) but they don't always want to ask questions because of possible embarrassment in front of their peers. Sometimes you have to look at your class and say something obvious like "do you get it?" in order to make sure everyone understands. We have discussed other options like having students repeat concepts back and having students discuss concepts to make sure they understand. Some of these teachers do not care to ask, they just teach their lessons, give them worksheets and tests, and when they see failing grades they just chalk it up to thinking that their students are inferior.
ReplyDeleteCommenting on what everyone else has referred to, the concept of the classroom as a team reminded me of Rafe Esquith. I completely agree with the idea of building a family or team in a classroom. I found it really disheartening in my placement when students would make fun of those reading aloud. It greatly frustrated me and they quickly learned it would not be tolerated when I was around. I think this is the first step we can take in having a classroom that promotes learning.
ReplyDeleteIt's really sad to me that there are teachers out there who are okay with failing their students. I think that they should do everything in their power to help those students succeed -- it's their job as a teacher. They should want to help them and not let them to continue falling behind. Teachers need to step up and play the roles that they need to.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteGoing off of what Katie refers to about the classroom acting as a team, this is such an important concept -- for students to want to help each other and encourage each other instead or tearing one another down. It's not good for anyone in the class. I've had good experiences in the classroom with students -- most of them seem to stand behind each other. This is the environment all teachers should strive to promote in their classrooms.
ReplyDeleteI like the way Mr Forshay created his way of engaging the students to write and actually want to write and enjoy it. I think it is very important for students to be interested in the work they are doing. I know this isn't possible in some other subject, but writing exercises allow so much creativity. And also having the students read their final product in front of other classrooms will make their whole writing process more rewarding.
ReplyDeleteThe "business" versus "caring" debate that Wes was talking about is beyond the truth. By making the best effort of combining the two in the most equal manner will make a huge difference in teaching and learning. This is true because students respond better when they know you truly care about them while also demanding structure and respect, the "business" part.
ReplyDelete