I loved the little part she has on page 24 about curse words because it opened up my eyes to a new way to look at them. She describes curse words as that "there is no such thing as a bad word" but instead "words that annoyed people."
See, growing up in a strict southern baptist home, I rarely heard my parents cuss. The first curse word I ever heard was actually from a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle movie. Enthralled, I repeated the word to my mother, thinking she would be proud that I had learned a new word. But when she instead grounded me and told me "We don't say that," I didn't understand at first. I didn't know it was a "Bad" word, but when I look back at it, curse words do seem more like words that annoy people. I curse, I'll be open and honest about that. But there are words that I refuse to say and that I can't stand others saying because the diction and the misuse of context just downright annoy me.
So I thought it was interesting that the Blacks have very little priority when it comes to words. So why does this happen then? Why is it that certain words have now been deemed "Bad"? If a student in your class were to curse, would you punish them? Or would you sit there and think about how that word might just "Annoy" you instead?
Would students, if cursing was looked at this way, receive more freedom in their language if curse words were suddenly allowed? Do you think if they were no longer a forbidden context that they would stop? I feel like that is what she was trying to say, that they are just words and the only thing that makes them bad are the ways that people react to them.
There’s one idea in Chapter 2 that I think encompasses what everyone strives for in life. Smith says that he became, “a member of the Nation of Islam,”(21) and that there were many factors that contributed to this decision. Most of them point to the idea that Islam allowed him to be himself without a sense of guilt for this urge to be true to your soul. In chapter 2, Dowdy suggests that after she became a member of the Banyan Television Workshop her, “soul could find its way throughout my body, and I could feel at one with my inner reality. This too says that she was only looking for a place to be herself. I think Caucasian people take this for granted sometimes. Sure all of us want to find a place where we fit in, but this is so much harder for African American’s or multi-racial individuals.
I liked this chapter so much! Reading it I was reminded of the words I heard growing up from first to twelfth grade. I hovered on the fringes of this language most of my early life unable to speak but usually able to understand it. After reading this chapter I was reminded of the Introduction and all the Lemovian studies with AAVE that we went over in Dr. Callender's class, as well as code-switching and the dialect/ language debate. As a creative writer (and an incurable humanist) I revel in code-switching not only for the sheer ability its more proficient users have and its usefulness in reaching out to various cultures socially and academically but also because for me it represents rebellion. There is something delicious in flouting an artificial, unseen, restrictive, prohibitive, sociocultural "authority" that demands mass conformity to a "High Socio-linguistic Culture". The point is no one knows definitively who said we needed this artificial cultural-linguistic "standard" (the media was involved in standardizing English dialects) but it makes many people (domestically and internationally), even whites (to a lesser extent) unnecessarily unhappy. While SE makes global commerce easier I embrace code-switching not only for it's beauty and functionality, but also for the glory of creative rebellion.
In answer to the cursing question. I'd probably have the student do a project on the word. They'd look it up in the OED, trace its etymology, look it up in a slag dictionary (if necessary), and write a short paper on their findings. The paper would be presented to the class and turned in. I don't mind if they curse--so long as they understand that there are some words I have a strong objection to (racial and ethical slurs for example) and so long as they know when and how to use the curse word as far as its definition and context are concerned. I would also require them to omit curse words from their formal papers. They could not curse in their creative papers either until they could prove they were able to use other dialogue effectively or that the character/ situation required it because this often becomes a crutch in literary pieces. As a class we would also come up with our own curse words by blending or creating them
I agree with you Lorien and I love your ideas on how you would approach the idea.
There would be certain words I would omit in daily langauge in class. But other words, I would let them write in their creative writing pieces ONLY if they used them in the correct context. Also, your idea of creating words was fantastic!
And Dani, I agree with you, I think finding that place where our soul can be is a lot more of challenge for African Americans like the author mentions. She made another comment in one of the first two chapters of how she'd found the skin to stretch over the edgy skeleton that was the English language. Or something like that, and that it was as if she was having to wear a mask.
But I really do think we (Caucasians) take this for granted sometimes. But why do we take this for granted?
I thought one of the most interesting comments from this chapter was when Ernie Smith acknowledges that he will "not lose any masculinity or Blackness by learning to speak Standard English." At my middle school there is a huge focus on the education and social development of black males. There is also a program at Georgia College that concentrates on the same goals. Smith's comment associates not only blackness, but masculinity with the language that he speaks. This is an aspect of African American culture that I had not previously associated with language. How do we as educators convince males that they are not "losing masculinity or Blackness by learning to speak Standard English?"
I am also curious about your question on cursing. I feel that Americans as a whole generally like to make a big deal about very small things. Because cursing is largely frowned upon it becomes a rebellious outlet for most teenagers. They barely know what they are saying but they know it gets their parents riled up so by gosh they are going to do it. For this reason, I really like Lorien's idea about researching the origin of the word and learning to use it in context. At the same time it might be difficult for the student to be allowed to "curse" in one classroom and not in the others. This idea could also conflict with school policy.
Up to this date, I haven't called out anyone in class for "cursing". I think for the most part at that age, it's driven by a desire to be edgy/garner attention (until it becomes a nasty habit.) At the same time, I probably wouldn't condone it or do anything that calls attention to it.
I don't know how to answer this in any racial context. I don't know the right answer. I'll get there.
Frankly, I don't give a damn about the cursing issue (as you all have probably noticed with my free and loose speech). As far as racial context, I do feel like the whole masculinity issue has been something I've noticed a lot in placement. A lot of young black males I've had in class don't speak in Standard English because they feel like that is the way they are supposed to talk and it is something that sort of unites them together. That is an issue I have no answer for so if anyone has any suggestions, please do tell.
I was especially intrigued by the concept of "psycholinguistics" he mentions on page 21. From what I can understand within the context of the passage, psycholinguistics would be similar to the idea behind rhetoric in that it is speaking in a way that persuades others to do something.
I could not agree more with Erin, Brent, and Nick on the topic of cursing! Erin said it perfectly when she said that Americans get way too overworked by way too small things. Words can only be "bad words" if someone considers them to be a "bad word." Therefore, what is a "bad word" to you may not be a "bad word" to me - it's all in the beholder. Cursing is not a problem that I've noticed among my kids (at least when they think I'm listening). I have noticed that they do know they're "not supposed to use" the words because when I ask them what it is they just said (after they have said a curse word), they quickly reply, "Nothing!" When I follow up by telling them I heard what they said, they immediately change the subject.
I also loved what was said about cussing. I found it hilarious that the law was about using such words in front of us fragile women folk.
To me this chapter was a very interesting read because the author is coming from such a different perspective than most of the black people I know-- who are Southern Blacks. I have never considered that Ebonics was regionalized the way our English is. It's also interesting that in both Ebonics and American English, the Southern tongue seems to be lowest on the totem poll. (However, in my experience people overseas actually love the Southern tongue/ culture much more).
I really loved Part Two of this chapter-especially because I only honor maybe half of those when I talk.
Rose, I thought the same thing. We are fragile, didn't you know? I'll be sure to wear some sort of sign so that I am not appalled whenever someone expresses themselves in my presence.
I really liked the quote on page 17, "difference was perceived as a "deficiency" that needed to be corrected." I think this so often is the goal of teachers whenever they get into the schools. Especially with Ebonics. Since it is not the standardized way to speak, they see those students who speak it as people that are being ignorant to the real world. I loved this chapter and how it is put in such an easy to read way with real substance of how these beliefs do not have real foundation.
I also found it hilarious that women must be protected. Danielle I also grew up in a house very focused on bad words and today as an adult I'm not even allowed to say crap or shoot.
I definitely feel that if a student can use a curse word in the correct context and it adds to a piece they should be allowed to use them in creative writing pieces.
Though once again we would have to talk about code switching and when it is thought appropriate to use such language and when it is not.
The situation faced by the writer as a child would be hard one for any child to face. It's hard being made fun of as a child, and it's hard to imagine being made fun of for speech -- a dialect. Code-switching is such an interesting thing though -- the idea of speaking one way in one situation and another way in a different conversation. We all do it to some extent, however minor it may be.
I liked what Abby said and the quote that she pointed out -- how the difference in language was looked upon as a deficiency, so to speak. It's true that so often teachers try to "fix" this "deficiency when what they should instead be doing is providing students with the tools they need to know when and how to code-switch.
Just like Ernie Smith in Chapter 2, students do not know the language that they grow up speaking is not what is acceptable in the way in which you are supposed to speak away from home. In my placements the students have a hard time speaking the way we teach them in school, because they are exposed to other languages, such as Ebonics when they go home. It becomes really hard for the transition of the languages to stick with them. He also makes a good point that the language he speaks such as "ridin n leanin, stylin n schemin, and talkin out of the side of my mouth" are all phrases that he would speak to people to people that were not "Black professionals". This type of lingo is accepted on the streets, so the children think it should be carried into a professional environment.
I find it interesting that in one of my placements my teacher did not correct or pay any attention to the subject verb inversion that was used all the time when asking a question. My second placement my host teacher correct his student every time he or she did not speak "correct" English. Although the language is used when they are around each other and outside a professional environment and is what is called normal, fitting in with people, I think it is important to correct their language. It is our responsibility as teachers to help out our future generations and by letting them get away with speaking Ebonics or AAE in a professional environment is not helping the succeed.
I loved the little part she has on page 24 about curse words because it opened up my eyes to a new way to look at them. She describes curse words as that "there is no such thing as a bad word" but instead "words that annoyed people."
ReplyDeleteSee, growing up in a strict southern baptist home, I rarely heard my parents cuss. The first curse word I ever heard was actually from a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle movie. Enthralled, I repeated the word to my mother, thinking she would be proud that I had learned a new word. But when she instead grounded me and told me "We don't say that," I didn't understand at first. I didn't know it was a "Bad" word, but when I look back at it, curse words do seem more like words that annoy people. I curse, I'll be open and honest about that. But there are words that I refuse to say and that I can't stand others saying because the diction and the misuse of context just downright annoy me.
So I thought it was interesting that the Blacks have very little priority when it comes to words. So why does this happen then? Why is it that certain words have now been deemed "Bad"? If a student in your class were to curse, would you punish them? Or would you sit there and think about how that word might just "Annoy" you instead?
Would students, if cursing was looked at this way, receive more freedom in their language if curse words were suddenly allowed? Do you think if they were no longer a forbidden context that they would stop? I feel like that is what she was trying to say, that they are just words and the only thing that makes them bad are the ways that people react to them.
There’s one idea in Chapter 2 that I think encompasses what everyone strives for in life. Smith says that he became, “a member of the Nation of Islam,”(21) and that there were many factors that contributed to this decision. Most of them point to the idea that Islam allowed him to be himself without a sense of guilt for this urge to be true to your soul. In chapter 2, Dowdy suggests that after she became a member of the Banyan Television Workshop her, “soul could find its way throughout my body, and I could feel at one with my inner reality. This too says that she was only looking for a place to be herself. I think Caucasian people take this for granted sometimes. Sure all of us want to find a place where we fit in, but this is so much harder for African American’s or multi-racial individuals.
ReplyDeleteI liked this chapter so much! Reading it I was reminded of the words I heard growing up from first to twelfth grade. I hovered on the fringes of this language most of my early life unable to speak but usually able to understand it. After reading this chapter I was reminded of the Introduction and all the Lemovian studies with AAVE that we went over in Dr. Callender's class, as well as code-switching and the dialect/ language debate.
ReplyDeleteAs a creative writer (and an incurable humanist) I revel in code-switching not only for the sheer ability its more proficient users have and its usefulness in reaching out to various cultures socially and academically but also because for me it represents rebellion.
There is something delicious in flouting an artificial, unseen, restrictive, prohibitive, sociocultural "authority" that demands mass conformity to a "High Socio-linguistic Culture". The point is no one knows definitively who said we needed this artificial cultural-linguistic "standard" (the media was involved in standardizing English dialects) but it makes many people (domestically and internationally), even whites (to a lesser extent) unnecessarily unhappy. While SE makes global commerce easier I embrace code-switching not only for it's beauty and functionality, but also for the glory of creative rebellion.
Whew...there's my manifesto for the day.
In answer to the cursing question. I'd probably have the student do a project on the word. They'd look it up in the OED, trace its etymology, look it up in a slag dictionary (if necessary), and write a short paper on their findings. The paper would be presented to the class and turned in. I don't mind if they curse--so long as they understand that there are some words I have a strong objection to (racial and ethical slurs for example) and so long as they know when and how to use the curse word as far as its definition and context are concerned.
ReplyDeleteI would also require them to omit curse words from their formal papers. They could not curse in their creative papers either until they could prove they were able to use other dialogue effectively or that the character/ situation required it because this often becomes a crutch in literary pieces.
As a class we would also come up with our own curse words by blending or creating them
Ex: frungy voodle:
FReaky (weird) + fUNky (smell) + grunGY (dirty)= frungy
Vapid + tOODLE (a silly, meandering way of walking) = voodle
frungy voodle-- an unwanted, disheveled tourist who looks both annoyed and completely lost: derogatory adjective-noun combination, neuter.
*sorry if this offends anyone here (I myself have been a frungy voodle before).
I agree with you Lorien and I love your ideas on how you would approach the idea.
ReplyDeleteThere would be certain words I would omit in daily langauge in class. But other words, I would let them write in their creative writing pieces ONLY if they used them in the correct context. Also, your idea of creating words was fantastic!
And Dani, I agree with you, I think finding that place where our soul can be is a lot more of challenge for African Americans like the author mentions. She made another comment in one of the first two chapters of how she'd found the skin to stretch over the edgy skeleton that was the English language. Or something like that, and that it was as if she was having to wear a mask.
But I really do think we (Caucasians) take this for granted sometimes. But why do we take this for granted?
I thought one of the most interesting comments from this chapter was when Ernie Smith acknowledges that he will "not lose any masculinity or Blackness by learning to speak Standard English." At my middle school there is a huge focus on the education and social development of black males. There is also a program at Georgia College that concentrates on the same goals. Smith's comment associates not only blackness, but masculinity with the language that he speaks. This is an aspect of African American culture that I had not previously associated with language. How do we as educators convince males that they are not "losing masculinity or Blackness by learning to speak Standard English?"
ReplyDeleteDanielle,
ReplyDeleteI am also curious about your question on cursing. I feel that Americans as a whole generally like to make a big deal about very small things. Because cursing is largely frowned upon it becomes a rebellious outlet for most teenagers. They barely know what they are saying but they know it gets their parents riled up so by gosh they are going to do it. For this reason, I really like Lorien's idea about researching the origin of the word and learning to use it in context. At the same time it might be difficult for the student to be allowed to "curse" in one classroom and not in the others. This idea could also conflict with school policy.
Up to this date, I haven't called out anyone in class for "cursing". I think for the most part at that age, it's driven by a desire to be edgy/garner attention (until it becomes a nasty habit.) At the same time, I probably wouldn't condone it or do anything that calls attention to it.
ReplyDeleteI don't know how to answer this in any racial context. I don't know the right answer. I'll get there.
Frankly, I don't give a damn about the cursing issue (as you all have probably noticed with my free and loose speech). As far as racial context, I do feel like the whole masculinity issue has been something I've noticed a lot in placement. A lot of young black males I've had in class don't speak in Standard English because they feel like that is the way they are supposed to talk and it is something that sort of unites them together. That is an issue I have no answer for so if anyone has any suggestions, please do tell.
ReplyDeleteI was especially intrigued by the concept of "psycholinguistics" he mentions on page 21. From what I can understand within the context of the passage, psycholinguistics would be similar to the idea behind rhetoric in that it is speaking in a way that persuades others to do something.
ReplyDeleteI could not agree more with Erin, Brent, and Nick on the topic of cursing! Erin said it perfectly when she said that Americans get way too overworked by way too small things. Words can only be "bad words" if someone considers them to be a "bad word." Therefore, what is a "bad word" to you may not be a "bad word" to me - it's all in the beholder. Cursing is not a problem that I've noticed among my kids (at least when they think I'm listening). I have noticed that they do know they're "not supposed to use" the words because when I ask them what it is they just said (after they have said a curse word), they quickly reply, "Nothing!" When I follow up by telling them I heard what they said, they immediately change the subject.
ReplyDeleteI also loved what was said about cussing. I found it hilarious that the law was about using such words in front of us fragile women folk.
ReplyDeleteTo me this chapter was a very interesting read because the author is coming from such a different perspective than most of the black people I know-- who are Southern Blacks. I have never considered that Ebonics was regionalized the way our English is. It's also interesting that in both Ebonics and American English, the Southern tongue seems to be lowest on the totem poll. (However, in my experience people overseas actually love the Southern tongue/ culture much more).
I really loved Part Two of this chapter-especially because I only honor maybe half of those when I talk.
I also loved the index in this chapter.
Rose, I thought the same thing. We are fragile, didn't you know? I'll be sure to wear some sort of sign so that I am not appalled whenever someone expresses themselves in my presence.
ReplyDeleteI really liked the quote on page 17, "difference was perceived as a "deficiency" that needed to be corrected." I think this so often is the goal of teachers whenever they get into the schools. Especially with Ebonics. Since it is not the standardized way to speak, they see those students who speak it as people that are being ignorant to the real world. I loved this chapter and how it is put in such an easy to read way with real substance of how these beliefs do not have real foundation.
ReplyDeleteI also found it hilarious that women must be protected. Danielle I also grew up in a house very focused on bad words and today as an adult I'm not even allowed to say crap or shoot.
ReplyDeleteI definitely feel that if a student can use a curse word in the correct context and it adds to a piece they should be allowed to use them in creative writing pieces.
Though once again we would have to talk about code switching and when it is thought appropriate to use such language and when it is not.
The situation faced by the writer as a child would be hard one for any child to face. It's hard being made fun of as a child, and it's hard to imagine being made fun of for speech -- a dialect. Code-switching is such an interesting thing though -- the idea of speaking one way in one situation and another way in a different conversation. We all do it to some extent, however minor it may be.
ReplyDeleteI liked what Abby said and the quote that she pointed out -- how the difference in language was looked upon as a deficiency, so to speak. It's true that so often teachers try to "fix" this "deficiency when what they should instead be doing is providing students with the tools they need to know when and how to code-switch.
ReplyDeleteJust like Ernie Smith in Chapter 2, students do not know the language that they grow up speaking is not what is acceptable in the way in which you are supposed to speak away from home. In my placements the students have a hard time speaking the way we teach them in school, because they are exposed to other languages, such as Ebonics when they go home. It becomes really hard for the transition of the languages to stick with them.
ReplyDeleteHe also makes a good point that the language he speaks such as "ridin n leanin, stylin n schemin, and talkin out of the side of my mouth" are all phrases that he would speak to people to people that were not "Black professionals". This type of lingo is accepted on the streets, so the children think it should be carried into a professional environment.
I find it interesting that in one of my placements my teacher did not correct or pay any attention to the subject verb inversion that was used all the time when asking a question. My second placement my host teacher correct his student every time he or she did not speak "correct" English. Although the language is used when they are around each other and outside a professional environment and is what is called normal, fitting in with people, I think it is important to correct their language. It is our responsibility as teachers to help out our future generations and by letting them get away with speaking Ebonics or AAE in a professional environment is not helping the succeed.
ReplyDelete